[Bilan]

Because the rule hasnt been enacted yet

[Rick_242]

Also curiously, when S+T is enacted, does this call for some ban revisions (I'm thinking no *insert explanation here* but, am just curious)>_>?

[yse]

Alright, another meeting this week. Discuss availability here.

The first thing that we'll do is go over the previous meeting's decisions and, if no other points are brought up, implement those decisions. Then I've still got a bunch of things I want to address, and a few issues we didn't close from the last meeting.

Thursday morning (or Wednesday night for the rest of you) is no good for me, but I'm available every other morning this week.

[douglas]

I can work it around whatever; I'd rather it not be between 0900-1900GMT on weekdays but if needs must I can manage.

[Thorn]

Thursday night, Friday night, and Saturday morning/afternoon are no good for me, but I'm available most every other time, assuming I'm not hanging with real-life friends. Yeah, they're more important, sorry; hate me if you must.

[yse]

We had an impromptu meeting today, where I opened the floor for an hour and only RR took it seriously. >_>

Anyway, decisions:

-R101/280 backtracking allowed
-IC1: Tails and Knuckles can’t fly over the miniboss, chart to be reinstated
-HC2/SD discussed, no ruling made
-Chaotix charts discussed, no ruling made

And last meeting's decisions are being implemented now.

[Shadow Jacky]

...any chance for another open floor session?

[Bilan]

Sorry I wasnt much use in the meeting, I was tired and I ended up falling asleep heh

[yse]

ITT another highly productive meeting, with over two hours of discussions.

Rulings:

-HC2/SD discussed, both banned
-Chaotix charts discussed, ring charts to be made, no TBG; no ruling on scores. Relevantly, TBG disallowed for all teams bar Chaotix.
-Sonic R ruled to leave as-is, Balloon Park in limbo
-Doublespeed Duration tentatively banned, without any impact on Rush scores or any other pre-level modification.

Relatedly, the following issues which will impact the above unresolved rulings are still up for debate:

-What constitutes a level completion? There's so many criteria that might signify a completion that I wouldn't know where to begin. (Currently eliminated as defining criteria: Time stops, level completion screen appears)
-At what point does competition become degenerate? Balloon Park is simply one spindash but according to Sonic R precedent it should be reinstated to the "real" chart.
-Where does the line get drawn on pre-level modification? I'm talking about things like building up the trick bonus on previous lives in Rush, or bringing a shield into a S3K act 2. Does Doublespeed Duration (or alter egos) fit this category? Is there a difference due to it being unintentional?

Post your thoughts. They'll all be taken into consideration.

[Stefan]

A point I feel needs mention here:

not all pre-level modification is the same.

super sonic can be considered pre-level modification in that you spend time, before the level, getting yoru emeralds, for a speed boost advantage to be used in the level. I think everyone agrees it's ridiculous to put super sonic in the regular sonic 2 time charts, hence the reason SSS (or DD) is tentatively banned.

[Thorn]

Regarding Hydrocity 2's trick, my two sense is that it's not legal. Of course, mike said my opinion was too late and didn't count at the meeting, so I present my reasons here. :P

Consider RPG's Chemical Plant 1 Knuckles video. It is considered an illegal strat because he does not reach Chemical Plant 2. Where logic gets fuzzy is that although the Hydrocity 2 trick doesn't move you to Marble Garden 1, you can exit the game and reload a save to appear there.

Now, the flag that tells the game to load a level in Sonic 1 and 2 is 0xFFFFFE10 in RAM. Not that the location matters, but knowing that a similar flag exists in Sonic 3 is key. Had RPG thrown this flag, his stat would be valid. The same goes for Hydrocity 2: the flag thrown to move the save data to Marble Garden 1 is not the same. It lacks the same requirement RPG's video does, and therefore is not valid.

Discuss.

[Shadow Jacky]

-Chaotix charts discussed, ring charts to be made, no TBG; no ruling on scores. Relevantly, TBG disallowed for all teams bar Chaotix.

with this are you just reinstating that TBG is allowed only for any Chaotix ring charts, or that its also banned for the new Chaotix extra ring charts?

On chaotix extra scores, what is the wait?

[Bilan]

No, that TBG isnt legal on any charts besides untimed Chaotix Rings

[F-Man]

-What constitutes a level completion? There's so many criteria that might signify a completion that I wouldn't know where to begin. (Currently eliminated as defining criteria: Time stops, level completion screen appears)

If times get saved on a trial-like table, it shouldn't count if the game didn't register the new record (see Sky Deck, SA).

-Where does the line get drawn on pre-level modification? I'm talking about things like building up the trick bonus on previous lives in Rush, or bringing a shield into a S3K act 2. Does Doublespeed Duration (or alter egos) fit this category? Is there a difference due to it being unintentional?

Somewhat relatedly, I think I remember some people ignoring the cheating devices rule outside of levels because "it doesn't affect your speed throughout the level itself." It should probably be more explicit that save states to save time in between attempts, as well as instantly raising your life counter to 99 is not OK as it saves time whereas an honest player could not take advantage of it.

[douglas]

-What constitutes a level completion? There's so many criteria that might signify a completion that I wouldn't know where to begin. (Currently eliminated as defining criteria: Time stops, level completion screen appears)

If times get saved on a trial-like table, it shouldn't count if the game didn't register the new record (see Sky Deck, SA).

-Where does the line get drawn on pre-level modification? I'm talking about things like building up the trick bonus on previous lives in Rush, or bringing a shield into a S3K act 2. Does Doublespeed Duration (or alter egos) fit this category? Is there a difference due to it being unintentional?

Somewhat relatedly, I think I remember some people ignoring the cheating devices rule outside of levels because "it doesn't affect your speed throughout the level itself." It should probably be more explicit that save states to save time in between attempts, as well as instantly raising your life counter to 99 is not OK as it saves time whereas an honest player could not take advantage of it.

I thought save states between levels were OK?   If not, then what is this topic for?

[P.P.A.]

-Sonic R ruled to leave as-is, Balloon Park in limbo

D: D: D:

Fine. Enjoy your dead game nobody plays.

[F-Man]

I thought save states between levels were OK?   If not, then what is this topic for?

Those seem to act like normal saves (having a mode already unlocked and whatnot, then you don't need to load from the save state anymore). I was more talking about stuff like, as a weak example, skipping the "Retry" menu in Sonic Advance between time attack attempts.

EDIT: further inspection seems to show states that are meant to replace traditional level selects. I don't approve.

[Bilan]

I don't see a problem at all with between level savestates; its not as though the emulators and roms aren't readily available.

If you choose not to use them because you're "honest" then you're accepting its going to take you forever to TA properly.

Plus if you want that banned, I think it would be safe to say that a lot of people would no longer be arsed with competing in the Mega Drive/Game Gear games.

[douglas]

I thought save states between levels were OK?   If not, then what is this topic for?

Those seem to act like normal saves (having a mode already unlocked and whatnot, then you don't need to load from the save state anymore). I was more talking about stuff like, as a weak example, skipping the "Retry" menu in Sonic Advance between time attack attempts.both

EDIT: further inspection seems to show states that are meant to replace traditional level selects. I don't approve.

What is the difference between having a mode unlocked, having the right Emerald states for S3 ring attacks, haxx0ring 99 lives and skipping entering a level select code?  All about saving time, and all give a (non-competitive) advantage over console players; it would be hard enough to draw a line, let alone enforce a ruling.

I have been skipping the retry menu in adv2 for as long as I can remember when I play on PC (obviously not on the console >_>), and I asked if it was allowed first (I also have states for level select codes, emerald states, etc - and I've proved that I'll nuke all stats for any infringements, see S2).  It does give a slight benefit in that I find it easier to stay in "the zone" when the turnaround time is less.  I seem to remember Taco being against the idea, but the consensus was that it was fine.  I also use TAS techniques to work out which routes are the fastest and what I need to do to execute them.  These are things you can't do on a console and that save preparation time - but you still have to play the level and execute the strat.  If you banned them, I'd argue that for consistency you'd have to ban anything that isn't in the vanilla console game - that includes using dumped maps or watching TAS runs in planning, for instance.

It's worth nothing that I'm plenty willing to share the fruits of my planning labour with people, so I probably end up spending more net time preparing than the people I'm competing against because of these tools (maybe I should stop doing that, I might stand a chance in adv2 then >_>).

Actually, reading this back it seems a little defensive; hopefully you see what I'm getting at and this doesn't come across like I'm a total arse :)

[magnum12]

A clear definition of what constitutes a finished run is certainly interesting. Maybe crossing the finish line (or killing the boss) defines a completion. Maybe defining a level completion as "the clock stopping solely as the result of a completed objective" is the best temporary solution until a better one can be derived in you doods next meeting. With bosses I'd say this is easier. Using the example above, the objective would be defined as killing the boss (unless the battle objective says otherwise I.E. Sonic Heroes Team Battles).

[yse]

For the record, here's my current working solution:

•   Statistics are taken from when the level is completed. The level is completed when:
o   If the game saves your statistics, those statistics must be saved for the level to be completed.
   Example: In Sky Deck/Sonic, if you fall off the capsule and your time is not saved to the game, it does not count. (Link to demonstration video)
o   If the game does not save your statistics, then you must progress to the next level (or to the credits in the event of it being the last level in the game).
   Example: In Wing Fortress, the time is taken from the screen fade-out, not the defeat of the boss.

Note that both can apply to the same game. SA2 tracks level times but not boss times, so the second rule would apply to bosses.

EDIT: Next meeting at 4pm GMT Saturday. Be there!

[EngiNerd]

You forgot your link.
*Minus brick'd
This is open for other users?  I may be free then.  I don't have any immediate issues (other than the need to remove SSR scores in their entirety), but I can add to the discussion.  Intelligently, I promise.

[douglas]

The current set up is that you can listen but only committee members can speak.  You might get voice if you've got input on a particular topic (say expertise in a game none of the committee members play regularly), but hopefully the idea is that all the evidence is in place beforehand and the committee makes rulings, kinda like a jury deliberation (only in public).

[EngiNerd]

OK, then here's three things I want considered:
1. Scores in SSR to be removed.  I doubt this will go anywhere, but at least a little discussion would be nice.
2. Send major version differences to freestyle.  I'm looking primarily at Final Egg and Casinopolis for this one, but it exists for others - those are just the two I've actually tried doing and failed.  At least do the major ones now; minor stuff like "in aquatic mine, you can do spiral uppercut outside the door and grab the emerald, saving 0.17 seconds" can wait.
3. Probably my biggest one - either change or clarify this:

Destroying more than 20 cars for points in City Escape, or more than 20 light darts in Eternal Engine, voids your score.

The fact is, I reek at the street boarding, and have yet to be able to beat City Escape with this rule.  Mostly because it really means hitting fewer than four cars, thanks to the chain reactions that take place.  Eternal Engine isn't so bad for me, but I do have to be careful.  I suggest either putting a time limit to available stats, increasing the number, or specifying that it means hitting 20 cars directly.
Thanks!

[Antronach]

Here's a simple rule.

- If a ring count or score count can become limitless in a stage, the ring and score submissions for that stage aren't permitted

That should cover all of the cheap maneuvers people'll do.

[Stefan]

Anti:

1.) There is no reason to remove the cores when no techniques to break them have been found. Ii'm orry if you feel that it hasn't been discussed enough, but it's a pretty simple solution. You don't delete charts because you have a feeling that some day, they might get broken.

2.) there are a couple things.
a.) casinopolis sonic is hardly a version difference anymore, gamecube can get an extremely low time too.
b.) just becuase you failed to accomplish something does -not- mean it should be grounds for removal.
c.) you can't pick and choose version differences to allow, especially in the realm of the same game. the idea of the rules committee is to provide fair and consistent rulings; saying that the small timesavers don't matter but the big ones do is hardly fair -or- consistent.
d.) gamecube also has version advantages.

3.)I agree here. The rulings are awkward. I don't see what's wrong with instating a time limit instead.

[yse]

Meeting held at 3pm GMT (stfu douglas).

Rulings:

-PAL/NTSC discussed, SMW charts will probably allow both. No ruling made
-Forums for ban reference/monitoring set up
-Time limits for CE/EE proposed, possibly at the time bonus cap (9:20)? CW the source of scalping is banned instead
-No ruling made on Launch Base 1 scores
-Super divisions thrown out, remain in Freestyle for now

[EngiNerd]

Anti:

2.) there are a couple things.
a.) casinopolis sonic is hardly a version difference anymore, gamecube can get an extremely low time too.
b.) just becuase you failed to accomplish something does -not- mean it should be grounds for removal.
c.) you can't pick and choose version differences to allow, especially in the realm of the same game. the idea of the rules committee is to provide fair and consistent rulings; saying that the small timesavers don't matter but the big ones do is hardly fair -or- consistent.
d.) gamecube also has version advantages.

You neglected Final Egg, which has a very clear disparity between the two systems.  I.E., for the Dreamcast, there's a second capsule suddenly appearing at the beginning of the level.  That's not something I failed to accomplish on PC, but something others have told me I CAN'T accomplish.  Impossible.
I would, however, like to see the DX version of Casinopolis.  I didn't know there was a similarly quick way of beating it.
As for fairness ... I only said that to (1) keep my post short and (2) encourage a start to the discussion.  If you try to consider everything, that would be one LONG meeting.

[Bilan]

You neglected Final Egg, which has a very clear disparity between the two systems.  I.E., for the Dreamcast, there's a second capsule suddenly appearing at the beginning of the level.  That's not something I failed to accomplish on PC, but something others have told me I CAN'T accomplish.  Impossible.

Then you Sir, are suffering from whats commonly known as "Version Disadvantage Syndrome". Like probably most of the site. Suck it up and deal with it, its not getting banned just because its only possible on Dreamcast.

[magnum12]

Before this devolves into internet drama, let me propose a bill to the Rules Commitee.
"Spliting the Game Cube and Dream Cast versions of SA and SA2." Version differences should NOT be banned. I'm personally in favor of the more moderate solution of merely seperating the charts based on version. In order to present the case in the best way (and to judge is the split is warrented), a copy of the version differences guides of SA and SA2 should definately be present at the next meeting since both systems have some sort of advantage in certain stages.